Modern cars’ smart features could be used to spy on you, drivers warned
Modern cars’ smart features could be used to spy on you, drivers warned
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Linked article
theguardian.com ↗
Fedigest
Fedigest
Linked article
theguardian.com ↗
Modern cars’ smart features could be used to spy on you, drivers warned
"Could"? Will!
"Will"? Are!
"Are?" Aye!
"Aye?" No, ARRRRRRRRRRRRR!
Oohhhh, who lives in a pineapple under the sea?
This warning is like 10 years late.
If I ever going to get a car, it's going to be a used one from around 2005.
My truck is 2006. It has a cd player.
Well now that's an interesting one! It has been a long while since I last saw a CD player in a vehicle.
All my vehicles have a CD player lol. Its normal for me.
My 2013 cars do not have any way to phone home.
We've got a 2015 Toyota Highlander with only Bluetooth for the headunit.
Thanks for your sacrifice!
It's the newest vehicle we've owned. Zero connection to the manufacturer.
Some cars you can just pull the fuse for the modem. You lose a lot of features, but that's the trade off.
It would depend on the features lost (I've heard rumours that some cars lock the trays or reclining the seats behind the modem access) and on whether such a modification would run afoul of the certification processes needed to keep the car on the street, legally speaking.
For much less mental health hassle, I could simply search for an older car.
There are kits you can get that pretend to be a valid modem to your car, so that you can disable the modem without losing any other features. They are usually between $50 to $100
¡Interesting!
Just do the antenna then. Hopefully it doesn't brick itself when it loses signal.
HAH, "could be." Bro they're already selling your driving data to your insurance company and they're using it to raise your rates, have been since like 2013.
Cars should not connect to the internet. Or at minimum have an easy way to physically disable the internet (ex: a physical off switch for the modem).
No, there are many convenient things you can do with having cars connect to the Internet. I don't agree that that's the answer to this problem.
The answer is that Stallman was right, software should be free as in freedom (i.e. among other things, modifiable by the user), and that includes software that powers cars. If we lived in that world, cars would only connect to the Internet for purposes chosen by the user.
But we don't live in that world so cars shouldn't connect to the Internet. If we need Internet in the car we can use out phones. At least then we only have one invasive thing.
That world should still be the societal end goal.
Yeah when we get there. We have a whole shit ton of privacy issues to resolve before we go making arguments that cars should be online.
Ever heared about ( as example ) mesh networking?
Tracking has been going on for a long time—it didn't just start with smart devices, etc. Even back then, TVs and the like were tracked across devices... It's enough (if necessary... but that's another topic entirely) if any link in the chain has an internet connection at some point.
Wait until you find out that other car's smart features could be used to spy on you. All those Tesla and Waymo cameras just ripe for the picking.
A big surveillance hive swarm of vehicles.
Wow, the Guardian on par with the speeds of IE6.
That is one of the primary reasons that I am interested in the Slate electric pickup in the U.S. No internet -- they do have an optional module that one can add if you really want the extra monitoring/controls that having a connected vehicle provides. Music/gps/etc is all via your own device. I don't know of any other modern vehicle in the U.S. I can get that has that option. (my 14 yr old car is getting to the stage where repairs are more than it is worth)
Our car was 11 years old and needed a lot of work. We got rid of it for a 22 year old car that was in mint shape. So now no infotainment tracking or anything. 😛
Just Lol for Life need a spy chief for this??
are the same people concerned about car data switching to analog phones?
Phones are grabbing all the same data.
Theyve been spying for 15 years. They can control you too. Why do you think they wanted electric steering and to get rid of throttle cables and "safe" automatic braking? Control. They can lock your doors and drive you anywhere, they can slam on your brakes as a semi truck is behind you if they deem you a threat to dear Leader.
The power they have now to get rid of undesireables , and sweep it all under the rug is a fascists dream.
GM started installing OnStar in some vehicles starting in the 1997 model year so they've had the ability since then.
Yeah youre right, I removed it.
👍
Lighter and more reliable than hydraulic powered steering
drive by wire is more reliable and saves fuel
Alright man, youre clearly blind to what's actually happening. Have fun driving your camera infested rolling spyware thats only dealer repairable.
Electric steering isnt actually better. They fail out of the blue and are unrepairable.
Show me how much fucking fuel drive by wire saves over a cable. .00001 gallon? Fuck off. You can still have a tps with a cable by the way which I doubt you know because have you ever picked up a wrench? I have doubts.
ok, grandpa. There is no such thing as power steering fluid leaks and belts slipping.
Neither of those stop the function of power steering and are easily repairable. Electrics fail and there is no repair other than a $5000 replacement.
You clearly have never wrenched so you may as we be quiet about topics you dont know. Also youre probably older than me 😅 i just have a lot more mechanic experience than most.
You do realize electronic throttles have been the norm for well over 20 years, right? And it replaces a lot of expensive parts with one single part.
this is Lemmy...they don't even own a car.
20 years ago, the Chinese and big corporations plotted for this day.
Nah. Electronic throttle bodies were implemented for emissions control.
Sure do.
And disagree. It replaces a cable with an overly complex potentiometer with circuit board and wiring that will fail and be irreplaceable 10 Years after the vehicle is Sold, rendering it unuseable.
Every "improvement" on cars has been war on removing your ability to fix anything yourself or keep a car for life. Its all throwaway trash now made to stick you on a lifelong subscription while recording your every move (now with cameras inside too yay)
Remember, "safety" and "protect the children" is how they take all your freedoms away. And it works because people are stupid.
Yes, the smartest kids play in live traffic.
you mean a TPS? Easily replaced. Before that, throttle cables would get stuck after a few years of dirt and corrosion.
Wrong. Ive owned over 20 cars and never once had a throttle cable issue. Throttle cables on 50 year old vehicles work just fine. Several have had tps issues. And good luck buying one when they stop making the exact model for your specific vehicle when the factory in China quits making them.
Stop defending idiotic tech in cars that serves to only make shareholders money, like making everything a screen with subscription e brakes (joke).
No, they don't. They require regular maintenance, like very other mechanical part on your car. My 1980 Mercedes and equally old Honda motorcycle are both cable-controlled. The linkage in the Mercedes is all sorts of worn out, to the point I can't accelerate at full throttle anymore. And guess what? Mercedes doesn't make those parts anymore.
A Throttle Position Sensor, as you understand it, is not used on electronic throttle bodies. At all. Inside the throttle body, the stepper motor itself (which is not a potentiometer) feeds the position back to the ECU.
TPS sensors were often shared among several models in a lineup, sometimes carried to newer models, and even over different manufacturers at times. They're stupid simple to make and fix.
I don't agree. And yes I understand the differences but I was grouping them together for simplicity.
OK cool, you go make a tps sensor or a stepper motor TB and I'll go make a throttle cable. Let's see who can do it far easier. Answer: a fucking cable.
You can keep your new rolling spyware computer cars that require a dealer computer to change oil. Not me.
Do you hate right to repair or what?
You know what's funny here. You gotta get a cable made to spec these days, cause 1) nobody makes a cable throttle anymore so new OEM cables are scarce, and 2) it's hard to find premade aftermarket cables that don't snap in 5000 miles, so you gotta find a shop to do it, or you DIY it and buy the parts and spend the time measuring everything out. Even moreso if it's for a custom project. That takes time and is a very tedious process. I know that because I've had cables made for my Honda XR500. It's a fully manual bike, choke and everything. No computers anywhere, just a big carb and a big jug - but with modern LED lightning.
Right to Repair's message isn't "go back to carbs". Our message is "give me the ability to repair and modify MY shit that I bought and paid for any way I goddamn well please"
To fight against tech progression is antithetical to the entire point of R2R. We just want to fix it without having to obtain drawings/parts/tools from factories/manufacturers at obscene prices, or sometimes not at all.
The fact that modern vehicles are rolling spyware has nothing to do with R2R, and everything to do with the shareholders demanding the imaginary money line continue to go up forever steeper, for that sweet, sweet YoY increase bonus. THAT is where your issue lies. Not at some random guy who happens to enjoy making tech his bitch.
LMAO, tell me you have no fucking clue what you're talking about without saying it. And I'm going to tell you exactly why you're a fucking moron:
Right off the bat, an electronic throttle has already superceded the oft-worn throttle cable linkage, throttle position sensor, idle air controller, and overly expensive cruise control modules.
My guy, you know what a JUNKYARD is? Car-part.com? Fucking christ dude, go outside sometime.
I don't necessarily disagree with this, but you're looking at it from the wrong angle. The existence of an electronic throttle body isn't your enemy. At this point, they have proven several times over to be far more reliable than the mechanical equivalent: cable actuated throttle + TPS + IAC + cruise control module.
Newer stuff, sure. After that tech has already matured. But the main reason for electronic throttle bodies was actually for emissions compliance. Snapping the throttle closed after a hard acceleration event causes a spike in emissions output. An electronic throttle body essentially eliminates that, while still giving you pretty much the same experience.
That's a different problem. Seatbelts, airbags, safety glass, crumple zones, etc. have all been tested and studied extensively. Injuries have gone up with every safety advancement because those who would have been killed before are now able to walk away with scratches or bruises.
Ya i know what junkyards are, just went there a few weeks ago. Good luck getting many working electronic components that have been sitting in the rain and sun.
Also, nothing feels as good and snappy as a cable. Electronic are laggy as fuck.
I can also guarantee I can do more on my 90s car than you can in your garage with any vehicle made after 2016, with affordable tools.
I agree with you on safety, different issue. Seatbelts dobt mean we need a GPS and internet capable car filled with screens. Thats just idiocy pedaled by car mfgs.
I still don't agree we need all this bullshit in cars when they were perfected in the 90s. All you need is efi and abs breaks if you dont want to be maintaining a carb and be relatively safe. The issue is now cars are wayyyy to computerized and you can't even replace your throttle module and or tps without a dealer locked computer. Thats what I'm saying here. Computerizing cars leads to this always, so better to leave them mechanical where they CAN'T ever control what I do with my vehicle.
I just dont understand the defense of new vehicles, myself. They all suck (and are all hideous and huge) and if you gave me the choice between new 1999 Tacoma and 2027 Tacoma, I'll take the 99 EVERY time 0 questions asked (*with frame rust coating, ofc).
So, here's the deal. The cars you see as "simple EFI", like 90s/00s cars, are still highly computerized. My 2008 Sienna has at least 10 different computers, yet has none of the "smart" stuff and no serial/VIN pairing... Well, except maybe like the security module, but nobody gives a shit about that and it can be tuned out anyway.
This era of vehicle is my favorite to tinker with, because in my own career I specialize in low voltage electronic systems, automation, mechanical systems, and making it all play nice together from a computer.
(Proofreading Lka1988 here - long tangent warning)
Well it turns out that vehicles made from the mid-2000s through the mid-to-late 2010s is perfect for someone like me. I have two Toyotas: the aforementioned Sienna, and a 2015 Highlander. Both have the same engine, the legendary 2GR-FE V6, based in the same platform (Camry), yet drive completely differently in terms of engine control and the precision of it.
The Highlander has a beautiful, smooth as silk U660F 6-speed and glides through the gears up to speed.
Meanwhile, the Sienna just absolutely fucking freight-trains itself to speed through the ever-clunky U151E 5-speed with 277k original miles and a sporadic ATF/filter change thrown in for good measure.
I've added a bunch of factory upgrade shit to the Sienna for dirt cheap thanks to junkyards. Adding fog lights just needed the lights themselves, the appropriate headlight stalk, and hey, might as well grab the light sensor from this XLE over here and it's headlight stalk....aaaand now I have fully automatic headlights and fog lights for $40. The harness was already provisioned for it. All the computers needed was to see the components. Worked the first time, 100% factory. I did this with the optional power inverter, auto dimming rear view mirror, all of the optional steering wheel buttons, hood latch sensor, and a bunch more factory shit that I forgot about because I did it so soon.
Anyway, this isn't the first vehicle I've done this to. I added additional factory steering wheel buttons to my former 2013 Caravan, so its aftermarket Pioneer headunit and the iDatalink module had more input controls to program. Which I did.
Point is, all of these cars never had a single problem with their electronic throttles, or any part of the computer systems that wasn't blatantly user error. In fact, the only kind of problem I've ever had with any of that kind of vehicle was a mechanical problem. The Caravan's transmission shit itself around 100k or so. The Sienna's power door cable snapped around 250k. I fixed it with improved parts from eBay for $30. The Highlander.... Ehhhh... it's only got 127k and hasn't given us a single issue in our many years of ownership. I get why people tend to keep them the longest...
Although, I think I got you beat. My 1980 Mercedes 240D has 483k miles, and change. It just shat a valve guide. Still ran though. And I get why people love these things, they are stupid simple to work on. I had the freakishly-heavy cylinder head off in 3 hours. From "hood closed" to "head on my workbench". I took my time, too. This is a SOHC diesel, mind you, so there's also timing chain I had to worry about.
...............k
EDIT: TIP OF THE DAY: IF YOU'RE GOING TO REPLY, TRY FUCKING READING WHAT I QUOTED AND COMPARE IT TO WHAT I DIDN'T QUOTE AND USE YOUR FUCKING BRAIN TO GET SOME FUCKING CONTEXT.
But actually though, he's not wrong. Waymo, Tesla self driving mode, they can remote shut off any tesla they want, people have hacked cars before, it's kind of a whole thing.
They seemingly haven't showed their entire hand just yet, so far waymos only forcibly detain and (legally speaking) kidnap people when they detect [CRIME] rather than driving them to the police station, but there's no reason they couldn't do that, it is physically possible, the only thing stopping it is "the guy hasn't pressed that button yet" in essence, but they likely will.
If they had limited themselves to self-driving cars, then it wouldn't have been a fucking stupid thing to say.
But they didn't.
And it was fucking stupid.
But there indeed do exist cars that do that, so, technically he's correct. There's other cars that don't have self driving but can be hacked and remotely disabled while driving, IIRC the video I watched like, 4y(?) ago was some random Jeep SUV, they shut it down while it was driving on the highway. The video cameras are also not super cool, there have been cases of Tesla employees using them to spy on people (who, iirc, were fucking in a Tesla), the computer in the dash (as well as the cameras) are reporting your driving habits (selling your data) to your insurance companies so they can raise your rates, Ford (iirc) recently patented a driver facing camera that "detects if you're drunk or agitated" which, of course drunk driving is bad, but that's too invasive of a measure for me, personally.
And as self driving mode becomes more prevalent, that means it will be more models that actually can do the exact phrasing you're picking apart, he's still not wrong, he's just a little early on that one part.
It really is a significant issue, and only getting worse.
So you dont think cars made today (or from about 2016 ish to now) dont watch your every move and aren't remotely controllable from either the dealer or the government if they wanted to? It does not need to be a self driving car when your car has internet access, electric brakes steering and throttle and doors. It can all be controlled.
Like, theres many videos and articles testing and proving this and I'm not going to find them for you because its dead easy (someone posted some here already). Even a decade ago, Tesla locked a guys car down remotely thousands of miles away because he was installing some custom software on it and they didnt like that. What if that guy had a medical or other emergency and had to drive somewhere at that time? its not safe to allow cars to be remotely controlled and it sure as hell isn't good for privacy. Nowadays its much worse. Why are you so upset that people try to expose the corruption ? Are you an automaker?
Please feel free to show me where I said that, because if anyone would fucking read what I actually quoted and responded to, they wouldn't look fucking stupid.
11 years
https://youtu.be/bG2JJw6S0AE https://youtu.be/A-PIDpixn4c https://youtu.be/MK0SrxBC1xs
🥱
They cannot fucking "drive you anywhere". Don't be fucking willfully stupid.
That was 11 years ago... A lot has happened since then—all the way to self-driving cars... You'd better come back to reality.
Oh, and IT + security incur huge costs, which companies are reluctant to pay, so they leave gaps in their systems. The people who report these issues are then targeted by the companies with legal action—precisely to ensure they don’t have to invest in IT.
Daychilde must be working for an automaker or a government and trying to spread lies that "we are crazy and everything is all fine!" No one would get this upset if they were a normal privacy focused citizen not caring about automaker woes.
So you think any car can be driven remotely because it has electric motor steering? You still trust your blender?
Quote the part where I mention EVERY car.
Tuahawk is equally delusional and/or astroturfing. Best to block them.
People thought we were crazy when we said they were tracking and recording your every single move with phones (I said this for years before it was mainstream). Now why do you think they need surveillance centers? more data storage. because everything is tracked and controlled to influence politics, get rid of undesireables etc.
We are way beyond tinfoil hats here bud. If you dont think they have control over every single aspect of your life, youre the delusional one.
you know you're using a computer on the internet, right?
Is your carrier pigeon sick or did you finally find out birds are not real?
Stupid argument I see all the time.
Answer: I can shut those off and unplug them or use a Faraday bag. You cannot do that with a new car if you need to go somewhere.
Oh no , see, that won't work , you are so special that in the exabytes of data being acquired there is a committee of at least 20 people in China analyzing how much yogurt you eat.
Read this and burn you computer, sleep under a Faraday cage.
Not about being special. Its about keeping our rights not to be surveilled. Not sure why you're licking boots.
Yes, ignore what I quoted and give a stupid answer. Good job. "Bud"
You dont think electric door locks can be locked remotely ? They are tied into the ecu, of course they can. Throttles and brakes and steering are all electric and tied into the ecu. So I dont get if you are trying to say "this will never happen" or what.
If youre that ignorant , you better do some reading up because its damn scary.
If you think phones dont track you even when theyre off, look at protesters theyve arrested that had powered off phones. Its called shadow tracking (I believe).
Go back and read the bit I DID quote and compare it to the bits I did NOT quote and maybe you will have a fucking clue.
Jesus christ.
Ok
"I'm so sorry, I didn't read the context provided and made a stupid fucking answer" is what you should have said.
NO! YA'LL THINK SO ??